Does anyone else find it Annoying that It's only the GBA tracks that Nintendo Messes up?
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14099 pts ★ Champion
6426 pts ★ RacerOn 2023-01-27 at 23:51:45
Ur Right. SMK wasn't a Mario Kart, it was F-Zero.
On 2023-01-28 at 00:32:02
@WassupYoshi so basically you have a problem with Mariokart 8 as a whole, good to know
The Wii U version is an aggressively mediocre kart experience with tracks that rely more on their gimmicks than their layout in order to make tracks fun. Deluxe has the same issues but takes away basically every single option to the player that allows them to go fast and includes DLC tracks, of which maybe a quarter are worth the price of admission. Mario Kart Wii was the beginning of the end when it came to Mario Kart being a kart racer with interesting racing mechanics and a crazy high skill ceiling, but Mario Kart 8 and Tour is that in full force. I have a problem with the Deluxe version moreso, but both are lower tier karts.
The GBA tracks were unreasonably long-winded. Good on a GBA, but off it? They'd never get far.
Nintendo has pulled off long and winding tracks before and since MKSC, it's not exclusive. Mario Kart 64's Wario Stadium takes well over a minute per lap in an uber-condensed layout. In Double Dash, Wario Colosseum was so long that Nintendo shortened the track to 2 laps. Its version of Bowser Castle and Rainbow Road are also long as hell. Mario Kart DS has tracks like everyone's beloved Waluigi Pinball, DK Pass, its version of Wario Stadium, and its version of Bowser Castle. Mario Kart Wii has DK Summit and Maple Treeway. Even Mario Kart 7 has some longer tracks like Shy Guy Bazaar, Rock Rock Mountain, and Wario Shipyard, not even mentioning the 3 track that go by sections because they would take damn near two minutes per lap had it been done traditionally.
It's not exclusive to MKSC to have "long-winded" tracks (when in reality you could reasonably complete 3 laps on most tracks in under a minute without any major shortcuts). You're justifying the simplification of layouts by saying there will be more pretty pictures flying by. If that's not peak ADD brain, idk what is.
And spoiler alert, Double Dash was the only really 3D Mariokart bedore Wii.
Mario Kart 64 does have 3D courses. The characters are all 2D but the tracks themselves are not flat. Again, if you want to look at what the developers intended for MKSC, look at MKDD.
Another spoiler alert, all of the Wii retros are similar to the originals bc the originals were ALL flat. Waluigi Stadium is the least flat retro, along with DK Mountain. The DS picks were also flat tracks. They specifically chose the flattest courses they could for Wii because they had gliding and underwater in mind for later.
DK Jungle Parkway is, obviously, known for being flat and as such being able to be consistently MTed on in MK64. Daisy Cruiser literally has multiple levels to it. If we want to talk about the DS remakes I will give you that, but saying that they with intent chose flatter tracks for DS and Wii's remakes "because they had gliding and underwater in mind for later" is completely wrong. You cannot under any circumstances assume that what is currently happening with kart is what was always intended. You have to remember that SMK was originally not even a Mario Kart but they changed it later to become one.
CTGP shows what the Wii is capable of after trial & error & understanding how to develop courses on it. The devs? Make a Mariokart. That was it. CTGP took a long time to make. One MK is all the devs needed. They didn't look to go beyond that, they didn't want to go beyond that. The only reason those mods exist is because someone wasn't satisfied, or intrigued enough to wonder what they could achieve if they went deeper. Using CTGP is very, very, very flawed.
So now you're saying that MK8 was what Nintendo really wanted kart to be, so as such they rushed MKW out the door to deliberately not have gliding or underwater sections? Bring me to your plug, because I want whatever you're smoking.
And it's not the hardware we're talking about, it's the kart itself and how it was coded. You could probably implement gliding into MKW. As with pretty much every other kart. Is it going to happen? Not in my lifetime because the work that would be required would be immense for basically no payoff, but I know it is possible.
Let's get this straight. Hardware at its core affects graphical capabilities, and how much memory you can process at any time. It does not affect how many gimmicks you can fit into a kart game. It does not affect how a track plays, nor does it affect how technically interesting a kart game is.
As for the Tour remakes, they're perfect. The originals were unreasonable to port over. Again, notice how they specifically reused the most unflattenable courses from GBA in Wii & 7.. GBA Mario Circuit is far & awayte WORST remake in 8/Tour, even compared to Sky Garden. Case closed.
So they reuse Cheep Cheep Island (a track which they'd pretty much have to port one-to-one without completely butchering it) for Mario Kart Tour, a game where they could "unflatten" it, but they would reuse Sky Garden (a track had massive potential before Tour + 8 butchered it) in Mario Kart DS. And we also now assume that they are only using tracks that they could "unflatten" despite a cavalcade of tracks with good potential still belonging in Nintendo's back-catalog.
Again. Bring me to your dealer. I want whatever you're smoking.
And yes, the hardware affects the courses. You really think they'd copy past a 2D image, rather than a full-fledged 3D model that makes sense?
If you want to judge it in terms of pretty pictures flying by, then yes it does. In terms of actual driving, it doesn't, and it never will. Every time I play Mario Kart 8 I'm basically falling asleep at the wheel and it's on the strongest hardware. Super Mario Kart still plays really well and it's on the weakest hardware technically. In terms of gimmicks, you're assuming that the hardware enabled it and not the coding that the developers had in mind.
And yes, looking at every other GBA game, we know they had to cut back alot of what they originally wanted, every single time without fail. You really trying to tell me they perfected this one & had to fuck up what they had in mind for every other one? I rest my case.
Nope. I'm saying that assuming how MKSC's tracks were butchered in 2023 are not an indicator of how they were originally envisioned to be in 2001. This also goes for every other kart. How Mario Kart 8 envisioned Wario Stadium and Tick Tock Clock is not and never will be an indicator of how Wario Stadium and Tick Tock Clock were always envisioned.
TLDR: Once you notice the originals were random squiggles, the remakes are fine.
"Once you notice" you gotta be shitting me
Dude I've been playing MKSC at a high level for 5 years now. I know every track in the game inside and out. Every little bit of trivia and tech that you want to know about MKSC, I know better than you and will always know better than you. If you're trying to school me on MKSC you're failing miserably.
Every track is random squiggles at its core. MKSC made those squiggles interesting. Hell, every kart before MKW without fail made those squiggles interesting. MK8 doesn't make it interesting, nor does MKT.
There is nothing interesting about any MKSC course
I don't know much about MKSC but just like every major N64-GCN 1st party, they cut alot of shit.
MKW being the end is copium
All of the Wii retros are specifically flat as hell. Daisy Cruiser isn't in Wii.
Mariokart 64's "3D" courses are still mostly flat. Specifically talking about Mariokart Wii here.
You can fall asleep while playing every videogame ever except rhythm games & online only stuff
that's not even a Mariokart thingBy the time they made Mariokart Wii, they had stuff like gliding & underwater in mind. Never said they rushed it on purpose bozo, just they knew they would do it at some point & held off on using courses where that would actually be relevant.
At the time, great. Now, awful. Most retro games by the way, not just MK
Every course is a random assortment of turns to form a loop. MKSC has MORE random than all the other games combined. It also isn't nostalgic for most, so yeah, delete that shit.
Faithful remakes would be boring af, hence the changes.
MK8 copium
On 2023-01-28 at 01:41:14
Explaining the CTGP thing better
When they made Mariokart Wii, they intended to make an official Mariokart game, & nothing more. Do up the game, tweak things here & there, cut some stuff they wouldn't finish in time, the usual development.
When they were done, they were done. Unless some gamebreaking bug was found, they were finished developing & patching the game. They were satisfied with how it turned out.
Mods are only made because someone WASN'T satisfied. They wanted something MORE. The base game was fine, but there was something they wanted that wasn't present, so they added it in themselves. CTGP shows off what you can really do with the Wii's hardware, pushing it to limits the devs never intended. The game was complete in the developers' eyes, they didn't need to add anything else. Certainly not 200+ tracks, or restoring online, or all the hide & seek, 50 laps, elimination & so on. The mods are the result of repeated use of the system over a long time. The Nintendo devs only made the game that one time; they didn't push things past it, whether that be they never thought about it or weren't allowed to.
They finished, but didn't dig deeper, try to see what they could get away with. That's how mods work.
To answer the original question by @KirbyBoy, yes the fans are upset, but they only make up 20% of the people who play 8 Deluxe & Tour, & no fanbase is ever happy, so the general consensus is that nobody really cares.
When they made Mariokart Wii, they intended to make an official Mariokart game, & nothing more. Do up the game, tweak things here & there, cut some stuff they wouldn't finish in time, the usual development.
When they were done, they were done. Unless some gamebreaking bug was found, they were finished developing & patching the game. They were satisfied with how it turned out.
Mods are only made because someone WASN'T satisfied. They wanted something MORE. The base game was fine, but there was something they wanted that wasn't present, so they added it in themselves. CTGP shows off what you can really do with the Wii's hardware, pushing it to limits the devs never intended. The game was complete in the developers' eyes, they didn't need to add anything else. Certainly not 200+ tracks, or restoring online, or all the hide & seek, 50 laps, elimination & so on. The mods are the result of repeated use of the system over a long time. The Nintendo devs only made the game that one time; they didn't push things past it, whether that be they never thought about it or weren't allowed to.
They finished, but didn't dig deeper, try to see what they could get away with. That's how mods work.
To answer the original question by @KirbyBoy, yes the fans are upset, but they only make up 20% of the people who play 8 Deluxe & Tour, & no fanbase is ever happy, so the general consensus is that nobody really cares.
On 2023-01-28 at 18:32:40
There is nothing interesting about any MKSC course
I don't know much about MKSC but just like every major N64-GCN 1st party, they cut alot of shit.
I don't know much about MKSC but just like every major N64-GCN 1st party, they cut alot of shit.
Clearly you've never played (or ever seen any footage past some rando with no idea what they're doing) MKSC because there's a lot of interesting stuff going on here. Pretty much every track has some strats that allow you to massively cut times and push the skill ceiling ad-infinitum. Every track is a new test of skill: what tech have you gotten down and which do you need to work on. It's got a learning curve, but once you get past it's easily one of the most rewarding kart experiences. Want proof?
Compare this to MK8D, where I can literally beat the game without ever touching the controller during the race. Their WRs look like this.
There's some cool glider tech on MC, but other than that, all the interesting stuff relies on the visual flashiness of the track rather than the mechanics of the game. It's 99% lineage, basically the same as MK7's WRs except with less glider tech. I still respect these players (they work with the mechanics and options they have access to, and still produce clean runs), but ultimately the game gives you less options to go fast so there is a lower skill ceiling making the game inherently less interesting.
MKW being the end is copium
All of the Wii retros are specifically flat as hell. Daisy Cruiser isn't in Wii.
All of the Wii retros are specifically flat as hell. Daisy Cruiser isn't in Wii.
Again, DK Mountain, Waluigi Stadium, and DK Jungle Parkway are known for their flatness. Definitely. As is Mario Raceway. I know there's no anti-gravity or anything but I guess if a track doesn't have the characters at an angle where it would be impossible to drive on IRL, it's flat.
And yes, Mario Kart Wii was the beginning of the end. This is coming from someone who's first kart was Mario Kart Wii. It's still an ok kart experience but it deliberately took away options from MKDS and replaced it with Funky Kong's Wheelie Simulator 2008. It's still more interesting than the games that came after it but it's objectively the least mechanically interesting kart released up to that point. And people still say it's the Melee of karts.
Mariokart 64's "3D" courses are still mostly flat. Specifically talking about Mariokart Wii here.
I will give you Sherbet Land. I've mentioned DK Jungle Parkway before and I have Mario Raceway. Bowser Castle has some elevation changes that aren't really noticed during gameplay but it is there, even if it only really affects the track during the spiral up out of the castle.
By the time they made Mariokart Wii, they had stuff like gliding & underwater in mind. Never said they rushed it on purpose bozo, just they knew they would do it at some point & held off on using courses where that would actually be relevant.
For the third time now. Just because a certain track was remade in a certain way does not fucking mean that it is was they were always intending to do with the track. I can guarantee you right now that if a track like Waluigi Stadium was remade in MK8D, it would have needless anti-gravity and underwater sections too, while Wario Stadium's remake in MKW would basically be one-to-one. MK64's Sherbet Land would have needless anti-gravity and underwater sections, while MKDD's Sherbet Land would be remade, again, one-to-one. And I'm not even talking about the DLC!
There is genuinely no way to tell what a developer is going to do next in the moment, you're just making erroneous conclusions based on what we see now. If you look at MKW's unused data + prerelease footage + concept art, there is zero mention of anything to do with gliders or any underwater driving, nor anti-gravity. Saying they "had it in mind" is unprovable to be true or false.
At the time, great. Now, awful. Most retro games by the way, not just MK
For a long time handheld games were of lower quality than their console counterparts, you sacrificed it for that portability factor. But to say most retro games? I doubt. You're expecting the same visual flashiness and polish from a Nintendo 64 game as you do a Switch game. You want to compare games? Compare them of the same generation, then we'll talk. And even if we ignore it these older games also take a lot of risks that I find newer games lack (which I appreciate). Say what you will about Mario 64 or Sonic Adventure 1, those games are absolutely groundbreaking and they more or less seamlessly transitioned their respective series into 3D with gameplay mechanics that are still fun with a boatload of replayability. Compare those games to Mario Galaxy 2 or Sonic Generations, while they are good fun games, they use tried and true formulas and ultimately aren't setting the world on fire with new mechanics and ideas. Which would I rather play more? Depends on the day but probably the older ones.
Every course is a random assortment of turns to form a loop. MKSC has MORE random than all the other games combined. It also isn't nostalgic for most, so yeah, delete that shit.
"More random" means literally nothing. It's just your interpretation of a track's layout.
I will give you that Super Circuit is the worst selling kart game, but it's not like the others outsold it by a longshot. Double Dash sold barely a million more copies than it, Super Mario Kart three million more, and 64 four million more, and SMK+64 has the luxury of being re-released multiple times on three generations of hardware. Super Circuit was only ever rereleased for sale on the Wii U, a console that was basically dead on arrival. Super Circuit is also the best selling Mario game for the GBA, and it was never a bundled with the console either.
The issue? Super Circuit never had a wave of nostalgic fanboys defending it. That wave went straight from MK64 to MKDD to MKW. That crowd that still sees those games as flawless would flip their shit if there was any change to their tracks. Nintendo, thusly, has to keep those at least somewhat faithful, because there will be backlash and something will be done about it (or probably not, Nintendo fans would buy air if it had the Mario name on it). If they could get away with it, they absolutely would be doing it. They can't though.
Super Circuit on the other hand has no fanbase like that and is generally regarded lowly in the fan's opinions. Nintendo can get away with that because the people who like Super Circuit are such a small minority that there won't be backlash and there won't be anything done about it. It's a shame.
Faithful remakes would be boring af, hence the changes.
Then do what I said earlier. Employ the game's gimmicks without changing the track's layout and don't make the track over-reliant on the gimmicks. If you can't make it work, don't sully the track's legacy.
And even disregarding that, this hasn't stopped them from remaking SNES Rainbow Road four separate times now, all of which pretty one-to-one with the original track from 1992. Same goes with Waluigi Pinball, Maple Treeway, Coconut Mall, Kalamari Desert, Airship Fortress, Dino Dino Jungle, and Koopa Cape, all of which have been remade multiple times, all of which will continue to be remade virtually unchanged until the end of time, or least until their diehards eventually croak.
1On 2023-04-06 at 18:05:28
Something Happened to GBA Yoshi Desert.
GBA
TOUR
GBA
TOUR
1On 2023-04-06 at 18:07:17
Something Happened to GBA Yoshi Desert.
GBA
TOUR
GBA
TOUR
The track was simplified for control on mobile devices.
2
1On 2023-04-06 at 18:12:13
And no, I'd rather not have the GBA tracks keep their random squiggles in the remakes: what's the point of remaking them if they're gonna be the same anyway?
Exactly, Nintendo Barely Changes the Wii Tracks, GCN Tracks in TOUR, DS Tracks, SNES Tracks, N64 Tracks, and 3DS Tracks. Mostly Wii Tracks.
But It's Only the GBA Tracks that Lose their Original Shape. Wii Dry Dry Ruins in MKT Barely Changed.
3
1On 2023-04-06 at 18:52:36
And no, I'd rather not have the GBA tracks keep their random squiggles in the remakes: what's the point of remaking them if they're gonna be the same anyway?
Exactly, Nintendo Barely Changes the Wii Tracks, GCN Tracks in TOUR, DS Tracks, SNES Tracks, N64 Tracks, and 3DS Tracks. Mostly Wii Tracks.
But It's Only the GBA Tracks that Lose their Original Shape. Wii Dry Dry Ruins in MKT Barely Changed.
Okay genius, how does one modify a 3D place? We've already SEEN those tracks in full-fledged 3D/2.5D. How on earth would they explain the difference in appearance? It wouldn't work. The FLAT games didn't make sense to begin with. If SNES wasn't so damn nostalgic, those would've been modified too. GBA isn't nostalgic enough to get by, so they remade them. An already 3D area can't get a drastic overhaul unless it's a timeskip or something, and that isn't the case here, it's fucking Mario. It wouldn't make sense.
On 2023-04-06 at 19:05:08
Something Happened to GBA Yoshi Desert.
GBA
TOUR
GBA
TOUR
The original looks like someone took a rope and twisted it around with no cohesion. It's better that way I think,
notably with MKT controls being harder.
On 2023-04-06 at 19:07:39
Since a certain somebody reopened this shit for Yoshi Desert....
Clearly you've never played (or ever seen any footage past some rando with no idea what they're doing) MKSC because there's a lot of interesting stuff going on here. Pretty much every track has some strats that allow you to massively cut times and push the skill ceiling ad-infinitum. Every track is a new test of skill: what tech have you gotten down and which do you need to work on. It's got a learning curve, but once you get past it's easily one of the most rewarding kart experiences. Want proof?
Compare this to MK8D, where I can literally beat the game without ever touching the controller during the race. Their WRs look like this.
There's some cool glider tech on MC, but other than that, all the interesting stuff relies on the visual flashiness of the track rather than the mechanics of the game. It's 99% lineage, basically the same as MK7's WRs except with less glider tech. I still respect these players (they work with the mechanics and options they have access to, and still produce clean runs), but ultimately the game gives you less options to go fast so there is a lower skill ceiling making the game inherently less interesting.
Again, DK Mountain, Waluigi Stadium, and DK Jungle Parkway are known for their flatness. Definitely. As is Mario Raceway. I know there's no anti-gravity or anything but I guess if a track doesn't have the characters at an angle where it would be impossible to drive on IRL, it's flat.
And yes, Mario Kart Wii was the beginning of the end. This is coming from someone who's first kart was Mario Kart Wii. It's still an ok kart experience but it deliberately took away options from MKDS and replaced it with Funky Kong's Wheelie Simulator 2008. It's still more interesting than the games that came after it but it's objectively the least mechanically interesting kart released up to that point. And people still say it's the Melee of karts.
I will give you Sherbet Land. I've mentioned DK Jungle Parkway before and I have Mario Raceway. Bowser Castle has some elevation changes that aren't really noticed during gameplay but it is there, even if it only really affects the track during the spiral up out of the castle.
For the third time now. Just because a certain track was remade in a certain way does not fucking mean that it is was they were always intending to do with the track. I can guarantee you right now that if a track like Waluigi Stadium was remade in MK8D, it would have needless anti-gravity and underwater sections too, while Wario Stadium's remake in MKW would basically be one-to-one. MK64's Sherbet Land would have needless anti-gravity and underwater sections, while MKDD's Sherbet Land would be remade, again, one-to-one. And I'm not even talking about the DLC!
There is genuinely no way to tell what a developer is going to do next in the moment, you're just making erroneous conclusions based on what we see now. If you look at MKW's unused data + prerelease footage + concept art, there is zero mention of anything to do with gliders or any underwater driving, nor anti-gravity. Saying they "had it in mind" is unprovable to be true or false.
For a long time handheld games were of lower quality than their console counterparts, you sacrificed it for that portability factor. But to say most retro games? I doubt. You're expecting the same visual flashiness and polish from a Nintendo 64 game as you do a Switch game. You want to compare games? Compare them of the same generation, then we'll talk. And even if we ignore it these older games also take a lot of risks that I find newer games lack (which I appreciate). Say what you will about Mario 64 or Sonic Adventure 1, those games are absolutely groundbreaking and they more or less seamlessly transitioned their respective series into 3D with gameplay mechanics that are still fun with a boatload of replayability. Compare those games to Mario Galaxy 2 or Sonic Generations, while they are good fun games, they use tried and true formulas and ultimately aren't setting the world on fire with new mechanics and ideas. Which would I rather play more? Depends on the day but probably the older ones.
"More random" means literally nothing. It's just your interpretation of a track's layout.
I will give you that Super Circuit is the worst selling kart game, but it's not like the others outsold it by a longshot. Double Dash sold barely a million more copies than it, Super Mario Kart three million more, and 64 four million more, and SMK+64 has the luxury of being re-released multiple times on three generations of hardware. Super Circuit was only ever rereleased for sale on the Wii U, a console that was basically dead on arrival. Super Circuit is also the best selling Mario game for the GBA, and it was never a bundled with the console either.
The issue? Super Circuit never had a wave of nostalgic fanboys defending it. That wave went straight from MK64 to MKDD to MKW. That crowd that still sees those games as flawless would flip their shit if there was any change to their tracks. Nintendo, thusly, has to keep those at least somewhat faithful, because there will be backlash and something will be done about it (or probably not, Nintendo fans would buy air if it had the Mario name on it). If they could get away with it, they absolutely would be doing it. They can't though.
Super Circuit on the other hand has no fanbase like that and is generally regarded lowly in the fan's opinions. Nintendo can get away with that because the people who like Super Circuit are such a small minority that there won't be backlash and there won't be anything done about it. It's a shame.
Then do what I said earlier. Employ the game's gimmicks without changing the track's layout and don't make the track over-reliant on the gimmicks. If you can't make it work, don't sully the track's legacy.
And even disregarding that, this hasn't stopped them from remaking SNES Rainbow Road four separate times now, all of which pretty one-to-one with the original track from 1992. Same goes with Waluigi Pinball, Maple Treeway, Coconut Mall, Kalamari Desert, Airship Fortress, Dino Dino Jungle, and Koopa Cape, all of which have been remade multiple times, all of which will continue to be remade virtually unchanged until the end of time, or least until their diehards eventually croak.
1. Comp doesn't mean jackshit in a casual setting, and those cuts and skips only exist because it's FUCKING 2 DIMENSIONAL. GBA is fairly boring.
2. Any track with an incline can't be FLAT, that literally goes against the words definition. All the GBA retros in Wii? FLAT. Any track that has height deviation can't be flat.
3. SNES has nostalgia, none of the other games have enough attached to them for that to matter, maybe except Wii having a lot more players than the others.
4. The "gimmicks" the original game had don't make a lick of sense post-2011. The stuff would be too retarded to make sense(Notice how much more polished against skips Mario Kart 8/8Deluxe are than Wii, & 7 had less than Wii, & 8 Deluxe has less than 7?)
5. Those are 3D. The original versions were 3D. It makes sense that they are the same. A 2D TRACK, ON THE OTHER HAND, DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. All a 3D track needs is a visual overhaul and maybe include the newer mechanics. The first, logical, obvious step for making a 2D track in a 2.5D/3D game is? Say it with me: UNFLATTEN IT. IT DOES NOT WORK, NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL. Not to mention a ton of the SNES & GBA tracks would play similarly in their OG forms, Super Circuit literally has them to prove it. Not only does it make 0 sense, it'd be incredibly repetitive. Instead of giving tracks they KNOW are going to be repetitive, they can fix the one entry that is out of line for no reason(SNES has nostalgia, OG), other than the game being launched on what is incredibly poor hardware.
Notice how the GBA tracks are STILL not THAT much fun in their updated variants? They're cool, but compared to the other games, still a little meh. How, on this wonderful, pleasant, God-given Earth, anyone could possibly think the originals would be better, in the year 2023, is beyond me. Nuff said.
EDIT: This aged pretty badly too. Waluigi Stadium actually has some cool anti-gravity. The ground is still faster, obv it's still Waluigi Stadium, the strats are still essentially the same as Wii, but not as useless as Mario Kart Stadium, Toad's Turnpike, Sweet Sweet Canyone etc, you're just a SC stan.
EDIT: Stan was very offensive, I apologize for it.
There is nothing interesting about any MKSC course
I don't know much about MKSC but just like every major N64-GCN 1st party, they cut alot of shit.
I don't know much about MKSC but just like every major N64-GCN 1st party, they cut alot of shit.
Clearly you've never played (or ever seen any footage past some rando with no idea what they're doing) MKSC because there's a lot of interesting stuff going on here. Pretty much every track has some strats that allow you to massively cut times and push the skill ceiling ad-infinitum. Every track is a new test of skill: what tech have you gotten down and which do you need to work on. It's got a learning curve, but once you get past it's easily one of the most rewarding kart experiences. Want proof?
Compare this to MK8D, where I can literally beat the game without ever touching the controller during the race. Their WRs look like this.
There's some cool glider tech on MC, but other than that, all the interesting stuff relies on the visual flashiness of the track rather than the mechanics of the game. It's 99% lineage, basically the same as MK7's WRs except with less glider tech. I still respect these players (they work with the mechanics and options they have access to, and still produce clean runs), but ultimately the game gives you less options to go fast so there is a lower skill ceiling making the game inherently less interesting.
MKW being the end is copium
All of the Wii retros are specifically flat as hell. Daisy Cruiser isn't in Wii.
All of the Wii retros are specifically flat as hell. Daisy Cruiser isn't in Wii.
Again, DK Mountain, Waluigi Stadium, and DK Jungle Parkway are known for their flatness. Definitely. As is Mario Raceway. I know there's no anti-gravity or anything but I guess if a track doesn't have the characters at an angle where it would be impossible to drive on IRL, it's flat.
And yes, Mario Kart Wii was the beginning of the end. This is coming from someone who's first kart was Mario Kart Wii. It's still an ok kart experience but it deliberately took away options from MKDS and replaced it with Funky Kong's Wheelie Simulator 2008. It's still more interesting than the games that came after it but it's objectively the least mechanically interesting kart released up to that point. And people still say it's the Melee of karts.
Mariokart 64's "3D" courses are still mostly flat. Specifically talking about Mariokart Wii here.
I will give you Sherbet Land. I've mentioned DK Jungle Parkway before and I have Mario Raceway. Bowser Castle has some elevation changes that aren't really noticed during gameplay but it is there, even if it only really affects the track during the spiral up out of the castle.
By the time they made Mariokart Wii, they had stuff like gliding & underwater in mind. Never said they rushed it on purpose bozo, just they knew they would do it at some point & held off on using courses where that would actually be relevant.
For the third time now. Just because a certain track was remade in a certain way does not fucking mean that it is was they were always intending to do with the track. I can guarantee you right now that if a track like Waluigi Stadium was remade in MK8D, it would have needless anti-gravity and underwater sections too, while Wario Stadium's remake in MKW would basically be one-to-one. MK64's Sherbet Land would have needless anti-gravity and underwater sections, while MKDD's Sherbet Land would be remade, again, one-to-one. And I'm not even talking about the DLC!
There is genuinely no way to tell what a developer is going to do next in the moment, you're just making erroneous conclusions based on what we see now. If you look at MKW's unused data + prerelease footage + concept art, there is zero mention of anything to do with gliders or any underwater driving, nor anti-gravity. Saying they "had it in mind" is unprovable to be true or false.
At the time, great. Now, awful. Most retro games by the way, not just MK
For a long time handheld games were of lower quality than their console counterparts, you sacrificed it for that portability factor. But to say most retro games? I doubt. You're expecting the same visual flashiness and polish from a Nintendo 64 game as you do a Switch game. You want to compare games? Compare them of the same generation, then we'll talk. And even if we ignore it these older games also take a lot of risks that I find newer games lack (which I appreciate). Say what you will about Mario 64 or Sonic Adventure 1, those games are absolutely groundbreaking and they more or less seamlessly transitioned their respective series into 3D with gameplay mechanics that are still fun with a boatload of replayability. Compare those games to Mario Galaxy 2 or Sonic Generations, while they are good fun games, they use tried and true formulas and ultimately aren't setting the world on fire with new mechanics and ideas. Which would I rather play more? Depends on the day but probably the older ones.
Every course is a random assortment of turns to form a loop. MKSC has MORE random than all the other games combined. It also isn't nostalgic for most, so yeah, delete that shit.
"More random" means literally nothing. It's just your interpretation of a track's layout.
I will give you that Super Circuit is the worst selling kart game, but it's not like the others outsold it by a longshot. Double Dash sold barely a million more copies than it, Super Mario Kart three million more, and 64 four million more, and SMK+64 has the luxury of being re-released multiple times on three generations of hardware. Super Circuit was only ever rereleased for sale on the Wii U, a console that was basically dead on arrival. Super Circuit is also the best selling Mario game for the GBA, and it was never a bundled with the console either.
The issue? Super Circuit never had a wave of nostalgic fanboys defending it. That wave went straight from MK64 to MKDD to MKW. That crowd that still sees those games as flawless would flip their shit if there was any change to their tracks. Nintendo, thusly, has to keep those at least somewhat faithful, because there will be backlash and something will be done about it (or probably not, Nintendo fans would buy air if it had the Mario name on it). If they could get away with it, they absolutely would be doing it. They can't though.
Super Circuit on the other hand has no fanbase like that and is generally regarded lowly in the fan's opinions. Nintendo can get away with that because the people who like Super Circuit are such a small minority that there won't be backlash and there won't be anything done about it. It's a shame.
Faithful remakes would be boring af, hence the changes.
Then do what I said earlier. Employ the game's gimmicks without changing the track's layout and don't make the track over-reliant on the gimmicks. If you can't make it work, don't sully the track's legacy.
And even disregarding that, this hasn't stopped them from remaking SNES Rainbow Road four separate times now, all of which pretty one-to-one with the original track from 1992. Same goes with Waluigi Pinball, Maple Treeway, Coconut Mall, Kalamari Desert, Airship Fortress, Dino Dino Jungle, and Koopa Cape, all of which have been remade multiple times, all of which will continue to be remade virtually unchanged until the end of time, or least until their diehards eventually croak.
1. Comp doesn't mean jackshit in a casual setting, and those cuts and skips only exist because it's FUCKING 2 DIMENSIONAL. GBA is fairly boring.
2. Any track with an incline can't be FLAT, that literally goes against the words definition. All the GBA retros in Wii? FLAT. Any track that has height deviation can't be flat.
3. SNES has nostalgia, none of the other games have enough attached to them for that to matter, maybe except Wii having a lot more players than the others.
4. The "gimmicks" the original game had don't make a lick of sense post-2011. The stuff would be too retarded to make sense(Notice how much more polished against skips Mario Kart 8/8Deluxe are than Wii, & 7 had less than Wii, & 8 Deluxe has less than 7?)
5. Those are 3D. The original versions were 3D. It makes sense that they are the same. A 2D TRACK, ON THE OTHER HAND, DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. All a 3D track needs is a visual overhaul and maybe include the newer mechanics. The first, logical, obvious step for making a 2D track in a 2.5D/3D game is? Say it with me: UNFLATTEN IT. IT DOES NOT WORK, NEVER HAS, NEVER WILL. Not to mention a ton of the SNES & GBA tracks would play similarly in their OG forms, Super Circuit literally has them to prove it. Not only does it make 0 sense, it'd be incredibly repetitive. Instead of giving tracks they KNOW are going to be repetitive, they can fix the one entry that is out of line for no reason(SNES has nostalgia, OG), other than the game being launched on what is incredibly poor hardware.
Notice how the GBA tracks are STILL not THAT much fun in their updated variants? They're cool, but compared to the other games, still a little meh. How, on this wonderful, pleasant, God-given Earth, anyone could possibly think the originals would be better, in the year 2023, is beyond me. Nuff said.
EDIT: This aged pretty badly too. Waluigi Stadium actually has some cool anti-gravity. The ground is still faster, obv it's still Waluigi Stadium, the strats are still essentially the same as Wii, but not as useless as Mario Kart Stadium, Toad's Turnpike, Sweet Sweet Canyone etc, you're just a SC stan.
EDIT: Stan was very offensive, I apologize for it.
On 2023-04-06 at 20:07:52
Something that I would like to mention about your reasoning, @Wassupyoshi is that it means the game is heavily based on glitch-generated fun, which some people can't pull of/find interesting. What if you delete the glitches? It becomes worse. GBA tracks did have limitations, with the 2D. 8D unleashes their potential by offering revamps, which is good. 8D wins the trophy whenever if it ever comes to accessibility. It's a fun game everyone, even totally new players, can have fun on. So sure, if you don't like that kind of game, then I understand why, but for me, if a track only relays on glitches then it doesn't mean it's good. I personnally hate how on SC its possible to complete the KB tracks that way. I feel like 8DX's ones offer a more raw type of effort, with less glitch help, and more down-to-earth times. It's about using the shrooms at the right place to pull off normal shortcuts the best, it's about taking it tight, memorizing the tracks, it's about trying new and crazy shortcuts, doing the best route combination, pick a vehicle that fits the track's requirements, use the best of different routes and worlds to make a best time, and that's really good to me. The skill gap tightens (for me having a huge skill gap in a game is a very bad thing) and allows everyone to have more chance to pull off the track well. So sure, some might prefer cut an enormous portion by using shrooms on the water and abusing the game's freedom, jump on a random pipe and memorize the key checkpoints, jumping over a tree or in a secret place to cut off most of the track, but I don't. To me, it's another type of effort done here, but it doesn't feel like racing anymore. So sure, there's got to be one thing for each taste. I'm glad people who like crazy glitches have game to pull it off, but I'm glad that a raw game exists too.
3On 2023-04-08 at 00:45:04
Something Happened to GBA Yoshi Desert.
GBA
TOUR
GBA
TOUR
Not Really. It Actually Looks Longer and About the Same.
Yoshi Desert Also Still Has Great Music
Tbh I Don't Think That Desierto de Yoshi Got Better Or Worse